Monday, January 11, 2010

Hybrid vs Pure DPS

OK, tell you what. I'll never waste a post on what amounts to a giant tortured analogy, if you promise to never speak of it, ever. Deal? Deal.

There's some stick in Blizzard's collective craw about how hybrid DPS must do less damage than their pure counterparts. Now, disregard the racist overtones and focus on the core issue: should the fact that I could heal/tank on one encounter, and DPS on another mean that on that other encounter, I should deal less damage? Now, I'm going forward with the assumption that IN THE ABSENCE of a good reason, all DPS specs should do roughly equivalent damage, specific fight mechanics aside. If you don't agree with that, then you want Blizzard to punish people just for picking the wrong class.

Reason 1: pure DPS is specialized. Obviously, since they can't heal or tank, a pure DPS must be compensated for in extra numbers. This is in it of itself fallacious (a good word, cause it sounds like fellatio) because you can't be in two specs at once. An elemental shaman can't suddenly switch to healing in a raid format; his talents and (less so) gear won't let him heal well enough to make it a real consideration any raid leader makes.

Reason 2: if hybrids do the same damage, there's no reason to bring a less-versatile pure class. The notion here being, if a raid leader has a choice between a shadow priest with a discipline dual-spec or affliction warlock, there's an incentive to take the priest just as a back-up if another healer is needed on some fights, or as D/C insurance. This is the single-string QQ guitar of resident pure DPS apologist Zulrohk, and it fails for two reasons. One, if it were true, than raid leaders would only at most drop the WORST DPS for the hybrid player, since what the hell do you need 11 potential healers for? Two, this problem has existed since the beginning of WoW, just replace "dual-spec" with "geared alt". Zulrohk has never been benched in favor of Zindo (rogue) just because Zindo also has a priest and warrior in the wings.

Three: hybrids provide signifigant raid buffs, whereas pures don't, so they must do less DPS to compensate for them buffing everyone's numbers. This is actually true, and would be a great reason, except that it has nothing to do with class itself. Rather than be about class, it's about what buffs you bring; a key distinction. Hypothetically, Blizz could design the game where all hybrid specs bring buffs but lower (not BC lower) numbers, compared to an equally skilled and geared pure DPS. I'm totally on-board that design philosophy, as long as the gap isn't wide enough that even a more geared/skilled hybrid player can't beat a facerolling pure in numbers.

BUT ZARAT, you'll whine, IT R TAHT WAY NOWZ. First of all, spell check. Second, no it isn't. Destro, Survival, and Arcade and Fire Mages all provide big buffs while dishing up higher theorycraft numbers than their hybrid counterparts. And DKs deal pure DPS while giving out even more buffs, further breaking Blizzard's party line from reality. If pure DPS have the choice between 110% damage or 100% damage + buffs, then that's fine, and actually a perk of playing those classes, if hybrids automatically get lumped into column B. But it's not that way, which is disappointing (especially since Blizz pretends it is). I would say Cataclysm will hopefully fix it, which is like my goddamned catchphrase now, but given the level of willful ignorance on this point, I doubt it.

On the subject of buffs, there should be another class with Bloodlust. Not drums, as it's not like an essential buff the way Fort and Kings are, but it's big enough to not get monopolized by Shamans. I nominate Warriors, they could use a big buff to the raid, and thematically they're all about flipping out.

10 comments:

  1. I would like to play as an Arcade Fire mage. That sounds awesome.

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  2. ARG. You caught it before me, and posted about it. Now it has to be that way FOREVER.

    I hate you.

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  3. I will Point out that the other and larger reason Zulrohk (read: me)feels that Pure Dps should be higher (barring a fundamental change to these classes) is that you are SPECIALIZING. If you want a faster que time on the randoms DEAL WITH IT your a Pure dps, if you want to try a different stlye of wow DEAL WITH IT you need to level an alt. And in competitive Guilds where most and or all of the dps are relatively similar being able to do another job is a big effing deal (at least to assure'n your raid slot).

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  4. In competitive guilds it's JUST THE OPPOSITE. They generally have more than 25 people who come to raid, they pick people for what they are best at, and don't have people run off-specs. It's the smaller, less critical guilds where the supposed advantage of switching roles comes into play.

    I've said before, I can imagine one slot in a raid for a dps/healer who switches as the fight demands, as well as one for a fourth tank, perhaps. That's what, 2 out of 16 DPS slots in a competitive guild?

    As to random heroics, that wasn't really my focus, and I will readily admit that it blows that 4 classes are DOOMED to long waits. I'd imagine as time goes on more hybrid classes will spec non-damage roles, to get the sweet instant groups, and things will even out, though never completely. But yeah, as it stands, you just need to DEAL WITH IT.

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  5. while I will concede that the most competitive guilds don't have ppl switch, this is not allways the case. Having options is allways an advantage, and this is where pure dps is limited. If they have nothing to make up for their specialization then what is the point of playing pure over hybrid?

    Also you failed to address my point about the lack of other types of play Pures can engage in, which I do feel is a large enough advantage to the overall enjoyment of the hybrid to perhaps be worth some dps.

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  6. This has nothing to do with your original post, but with regards to the LFG queue wait time, I seriously doubt we're going to see things even out anytime soon -- at least not in any kind of positive fashion. Even now, more hybrid classes -do- queue in healing and tank roles (particularly tank) to get sweet instant groups. Then, once grouped, they argue about who's going to tank (I don't know, maybe THE PERSON WHO QUEUED TO TANK?!) and/or charge ahead only to flat-out fail at their role so completely you'd think they've caught their e-peen in the zipper of their bear suit.

    People who would rather DPS aren't going to legitimately dual-spec into healing or tanking for random groups, because there's no real motivation to do so. They certainly don't owe anything at all to those random groups (much less 1000g and the time invested in learning a different role) -- and really, if they suck, what's the rest of the party going to do? Kick them and wait another fifteen minutes for a new healer or tank who may fail just as much? What if you're in VH or CoS? The attitudes of these hybrids is that queuing as a healer/tank regardless of skill is a win-win situation -- they get in quicker, and the DPS should be grateful to have -any- tank/healer at all. Of course the attitudes of the pure DPS (and any actual dedicated healer/tank also along for this joyride of fail) is that of bitter resentment and resignation... because really, what -are- we going to do?

    I personally have largely gone back to my levelling practice of using my felguard as my own personal tank so I don't have to rely on the "actual" tank if he turns out to be fail (this is how I wound up more or less off-tanking Ahn'kahet). I've flat gone without, as in a one Violet Hold run where our tank got pissy and bailed ninety seconds in (that actually turned out to be epic fun, but still). I've yelled -- I'm sure everyone's heard me giggle that "you don't NEED a tank for HoR!" but at the time that the two DKs and a pally agreed that this was an -inspired- solution to the mind-boggling question of who would tank, I was screaming at them that no, in fact the priest and I did want a designated roadblock between the waves of lolbominations and our frail clothy selves. And I've become fail myself, as in the other night in Oculus where I had to stop DPS entirely on multiple occasions because our tank thought it was hilarious that he couldn't hold aggro. None of these options (nor the last: leave group and wait 15-30 minutes for another) make me happy.

    All of this means very little except that the moment my baby pally hits 40 I am buying dual-spec and learning both tanking AND healing, because I do want faster queues for everyone and no one should have to suffer unnecessary fail to get them. But by and large, I suspect that the people who are really interested in playing more than one spec of a hybrid character are already doing so, and those who aren't doing so will be difficult to motivate into doing it well.

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  7. ...wow, that wound up being quite the wall of text. Sorry 'bout that. :-D

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  8. "People who would rather DPS aren't going to legitimately dual-spec into healing or tanking for random groups, because there's no real motivation to do so."

    The motivation is quicker, nay, instant queue times, and I myself succumbed to its wiles and never DPS a 5-man. I imagine others will follow. No idea how much, but it has to be happening now to some extent.

    @Zulrohk: so you're saying that because your queue times are longer, you should perform better in raid? WTF. I do believe that pure DPS classes should get some compensation (1 extra emblem of triumph or something) but not extra performance for an annoyance.

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  9. I am not saying that queue times are why hybrids should have less dps. I am saying that hybrids have more ways to play the game than pures do and that is why one would pick a hybrid over a pure. However if you take the dps away from a pure what do they have?

    -Zul

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  10. The word I meant to be key in the quoted phrase was "legitimately" -- which is a poor word choice, but the best I could settle on at the time. What I meant by "legitimately dual-spec" is "purchase dual-specialization, select points wisely, gear smartly, invest time in learning the nuances of your spec, and be prepared to fulfill your chosen role when you queue". Being a proper tank doesn't begin and end with switching out your two-hander for a sword and board. Too many DKs think all there is to tanking is putting on a frost spec. And it's just not true.

    I've known that you are an exception to this rule of thumb from watching you in raids: you may prefer DPS, but when you heal you take the responsibility goddamn seriously. With my pally, I shall likewise endeavor to be an exception. Not every hybrid is terrible -- in fact, I would wager most are very good! And whenever I get a good tank or a good healer I am happy for it, and I do my best to let them know I appreciate them.

    But when I queue as Astoreth, more often than not I am rewarded for my fifteen minutes of patience with someone who decided that their ability to get into the instance faster was more important than having a clean, successful run that was fun for everyone. They are able to make this selfish value judgment because there are few consequences for doing so. It makes sense from a purely economic standpoint: if you can go to all that work to get into instances faster, or NOT do all that work and STILL get into instances faster, why bother working for it? But it's a choice that screws everyone else, and the people who wind up suffering for it most are the pure DPS, because they have no options -- short of kicking the jerk and spending another fifteen minutes praying that LFG doesn't serve up another careless jerk in their place.

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